Interesting! We forget how popular Gibbon was in earlier ages, despite the controversial nature of his work. Even if we knew nothing else, knowing that Howard was a voracious reader would have made an acquaintance with Gibbon possible. Knowing more specifically that he had read Roman history and that Lovecraft had mentioned Gibbon to him make such a connection likely.
Yes, I've heard of this controversy and read a few things online. However, (so far at least) I have found the allegations exaggerated, or they have magnified one thing he said and taken certain things out of context. But reading the entire thing from start to finish, you get to see that mostly he is just listing recorded information — and a lot of it is useful — then occasionally he throws in his opinions, which may or may not be right depending on which ones.
For example, he is accused of being anti-Christian and blaming the decline on the Church. However, when you read it, he lists the Christian schism as one of the factors weakening the Roman Empire’s united strength, yet in the same section he states that the Church also brought civilization to a lot of the neighboring "barbarian" states, which in turn softened the blow of the fall, as they were also Christian and treated the Romans less harshly and didn’t destroy all of their cities, etc.
So yeah, I'd say it's important to really read the original words and decide for yourself on each datum whether it's correct or not.
Yes, indeed! For the record, I wasn't commenting on the validity of the controversy, merely acknowledging that he was controversial. These days, I'm not even sure the controversy is a particularly hot one. I think he's far more appreciated for his scholarship than criticized for anti-Christian bias (which I agree has been exaggerated by his critics).
It wouldn't surprise me if he had drawn inspiration from that! He must have read many historical works, as evidenced by his convincing geographies and characters. One of my favorite stories by him is "Spears of Clontarf" about the Battle of Clontarf, with the character Turlogh Dubh O'Brien. I've learned a lot about real events in history just through reading his works. The connection between the two queens named Zanobia is quite telling here. In the Lovecraft/Smith/Howard weird fiction triad, I feel REH was the most diverse in his themes and most inspired by actual history.
Yeah, I’d agree with you on that! REH explored horror, historical fiction, created sword and sorcery, and even touched on grimdark with Solomon Kane (I see you have him in your picture, by the way! XD — my favorite story is the one where he fights the harpies in North Africa!). He also wrote sailor tales and even Westerns! I’ve read almost every one of his stories.
I think I recall The Battle of Clontarf, but I’ve read so many that it’s hard to remember exactly. One thing I did notice, though, is how realistic his descriptions of large-scale battles are in the Conan stories — they often line up closely with the kinds of battle scenes described in Gibbon’s accounts.
Yes, Howard was well read. His Conan stories are wilder than Tolkien, but he was also extremely well-read. (Not as much as Tolkien -- not many people are). The Conan of the movies is definitely shallower than the Conan and the world of Howard's works.
Yes, he was—and I agree that the Conan of the movies doesn’t really hold a candle to the real Conan. He was an odd mix of wisdom and brutality.
I’ve read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings books, as well as The Silmarillion, but I never looked into how well-read Tolkien was himself! I’ll have to check that out!
Personally, I’ve always figured that the greatest writers probably all read a lot—what better way to learn, right? That’s why I make it a point to do the same.
Very interesting man. I applaud this research study you're doing. It's a lot of groundwork that I am getting the benefits of through you. A great short cut to reading Decline myself! Lmao. But in all seriousness, having studied the pulp tradition specifically as it is relative to Lovecraft but more so recently expanding that research into the other greats of the cosmic weird tradition and the REH high fantasy and sword and sorcery element. Which is greatly influencing my Merlinverse series at this present moment. This is a very profound discovery. Unearthing the historical influence of REH's inspiration for stories that your evidence supports as true "literary mutations" that were original as much as is possible. Elevates REH beyond merely being a pioneer for the Conanites, and Lovecraft adepts such as us ... but to a position of being one of the most prolific of all literary minds ever in existence. A foundation on which we all stand on. In pursuit of true originality. I intend to read the Decline, or at least, read into it. Myself. You've made it clear how pivotal of a work it is but at this time I have my hands full with so much material if I start reading about Black warrior monks kickin' the ass of the Romans I'm gonna freakin' drop anything and do a series about it. Salute to you sir!
Ahah! Well spoken, friend. Do what you need to do, and I’ll keep providing you with interesting anecdotes!
If you think the Black Monks got you going, wait until I share the sections about the Black Roman Emperor—one of the greatest of his age—and also the Black Pope! Most modern people never hear about them, whether it’s due to racist obfuscation or on the other side: Black peeps not realizing the incredible role they played in the Roman Empire themselves and thinking it was all whities.
Yea. That's dope. I'm aware of the Black Emperor. Didn't know there was a Black pope too though. Looking forward to seeing what else you uncover from the lost tombs of this forgotten and buried past. You are doing the true work of the adventurers of high fantasy. Plundering the dungeons for treasures!
And yes! You are totally right about Rome and Greece being painted in a white brush. I have uncovered in my own research that everything from Rome and Greece are merely evolved out of Afrocentrik Egypt, extending back to Nubian Cush.
I have my own theories that Rome and Greece were in fact entirely if not only to a very large extent fully Black civilizations that have been rewritten to conceal the truth of the origins of human civilization on this planet. Which many of us true historians know has much to do with Afrika. I also intend to at one point write a duology depicting "Black Rome" & "Black Greece" to reveal the many Afrocentrik aspects of the culture, and the lore and mythos that have been lost to us.
Interesting! We forget how popular Gibbon was in earlier ages, despite the controversial nature of his work. Even if we knew nothing else, knowing that Howard was a voracious reader would have made an acquaintance with Gibbon possible. Knowing more specifically that he had read Roman history and that Lovecraft had mentioned Gibbon to him make such a connection likely.
Yes, I've heard of this controversy and read a few things online. However, (so far at least) I have found the allegations exaggerated, or they have magnified one thing he said and taken certain things out of context. But reading the entire thing from start to finish, you get to see that mostly he is just listing recorded information — and a lot of it is useful — then occasionally he throws in his opinions, which may or may not be right depending on which ones.
For example, he is accused of being anti-Christian and blaming the decline on the Church. However, when you read it, he lists the Christian schism as one of the factors weakening the Roman Empire’s united strength, yet in the same section he states that the Church also brought civilization to a lot of the neighboring "barbarian" states, which in turn softened the blow of the fall, as they were also Christian and treated the Romans less harshly and didn’t destroy all of their cities, etc.
So yeah, I'd say it's important to really read the original words and decide for yourself on each datum whether it's correct or not.
Yes, indeed! For the record, I wasn't commenting on the validity of the controversy, merely acknowledging that he was controversial. These days, I'm not even sure the controversy is a particularly hot one. I think he's far more appreciated for his scholarship than criticized for anti-Christian bias (which I agree has been exaggerated by his critics).
Oh no problem! I didn't think you were, I just wanted to list off the data as I saw it so anyone seeing this would see it lol
It wouldn't surprise me if he had drawn inspiration from that! He must have read many historical works, as evidenced by his convincing geographies and characters. One of my favorite stories by him is "Spears of Clontarf" about the Battle of Clontarf, with the character Turlogh Dubh O'Brien. I've learned a lot about real events in history just through reading his works. The connection between the two queens named Zanobia is quite telling here. In the Lovecraft/Smith/Howard weird fiction triad, I feel REH was the most diverse in his themes and most inspired by actual history.
Yeah, I’d agree with you on that! REH explored horror, historical fiction, created sword and sorcery, and even touched on grimdark with Solomon Kane (I see you have him in your picture, by the way! XD — my favorite story is the one where he fights the harpies in North Africa!). He also wrote sailor tales and even Westerns! I’ve read almost every one of his stories.
I think I recall The Battle of Clontarf, but I’ve read so many that it’s hard to remember exactly. One thing I did notice, though, is how realistic his descriptions of large-scale battles are in the Conan stories — they often line up closely with the kinds of battle scenes described in Gibbon’s accounts.
Yes, Howard was well read. His Conan stories are wilder than Tolkien, but he was also extremely well-read. (Not as much as Tolkien -- not many people are). The Conan of the movies is definitely shallower than the Conan and the world of Howard's works.
Yes, he was—and I agree that the Conan of the movies doesn’t really hold a candle to the real Conan. He was an odd mix of wisdom and brutality.
I’ve read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings books, as well as The Silmarillion, but I never looked into how well-read Tolkien was himself! I’ll have to check that out!
Personally, I’ve always figured that the greatest writers probably all read a lot—what better way to learn, right? That’s why I make it a point to do the same.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Very interesting man. I applaud this research study you're doing. It's a lot of groundwork that I am getting the benefits of through you. A great short cut to reading Decline myself! Lmao. But in all seriousness, having studied the pulp tradition specifically as it is relative to Lovecraft but more so recently expanding that research into the other greats of the cosmic weird tradition and the REH high fantasy and sword and sorcery element. Which is greatly influencing my Merlinverse series at this present moment. This is a very profound discovery. Unearthing the historical influence of REH's inspiration for stories that your evidence supports as true "literary mutations" that were original as much as is possible. Elevates REH beyond merely being a pioneer for the Conanites, and Lovecraft adepts such as us ... but to a position of being one of the most prolific of all literary minds ever in existence. A foundation on which we all stand on. In pursuit of true originality. I intend to read the Decline, or at least, read into it. Myself. You've made it clear how pivotal of a work it is but at this time I have my hands full with so much material if I start reading about Black warrior monks kickin' the ass of the Romans I'm gonna freakin' drop anything and do a series about it. Salute to you sir!
Ahah! Well spoken, friend. Do what you need to do, and I’ll keep providing you with interesting anecdotes!
If you think the Black Monks got you going, wait until I share the sections about the Black Roman Emperor—one of the greatest of his age—and also the Black Pope! Most modern people never hear about them, whether it’s due to racist obfuscation or on the other side: Black peeps not realizing the incredible role they played in the Roman Empire themselves and thinking it was all whities.
Peace!
Yea. That's dope. I'm aware of the Black Emperor. Didn't know there was a Black pope too though. Looking forward to seeing what else you uncover from the lost tombs of this forgotten and buried past. You are doing the true work of the adventurers of high fantasy. Plundering the dungeons for treasures!
And yes! You are totally right about Rome and Greece being painted in a white brush. I have uncovered in my own research that everything from Rome and Greece are merely evolved out of Afrocentrik Egypt, extending back to Nubian Cush.
I have my own theories that Rome and Greece were in fact entirely if not only to a very large extent fully Black civilizations that have been rewritten to conceal the truth of the origins of human civilization on this planet. Which many of us true historians know has much to do with Afrika. I also intend to at one point write a duology depicting "Black Rome" & "Black Greece" to reveal the many Afrocentrik aspects of the culture, and the lore and mythos that have been lost to us.
Sweet brother, I knew you had some deep research going!
I like your theories and look forward to seeing them in the future!